MERRILLVILLE PLAN COMMISSION MEETING
President Pettit called the Meeting of the Merrillville Plan Commission of November 21, 2006 to order and led the group in the Pledge of the Allegiance. Members in attendance were Mr. Dering Mr. Huish, Mrs. Olthoff, Mr. Sterley, Mr. Taylor and Mr. Pettit. Mr. Kierzkowski was absent.
Staff present was Dorinda Gregor, Attorney Samuel Vazanellis, Howard Fink, John Warmelink,
Jeffrey Lowe and Janet Rosko
MINUTES:
Mr. Dering made a motion to approve the minutes of June 20, 2006, 2nd by Mr. Taylor.
Mr. Dering made a motion to approve the minutes of September 19, 2006, 2nd by Mr. Taylor.
Mr. Dering made a motion to approve the minutes of October 17, 2006, 2nd by Mr. Taylor.
President Pettit asked if there are any deletions, comments or corrections. All of those that approve signal by saying aye. Motion carries 6-0 for approval of all three sets of minutes.
COMMUNICATIONS:
Mrs. Olthoff read the letter from Mr. Joel Cohen into the record. Please be advised that we would like a continuance of this matter because I will be in Arizona training on the Maricopa County Sheriff’s office.
Mrs.Gregor stated that at the workshop it was stated that it would be deferred for 30 days.
Mr. Huish stated that he will make a motion that we delay this until our workshop in December.
Mr. Dering stated that I think that we have made it clear to their Attorney.
President Pettit stated that he does not want to put Mr. Vazanellis in the position since he has not heard the petitioner. We have a motion from Mr. Huish to delay this until our next workshop in December 5th, 2006 workshop 2nd by Mr. Dering. Is there any further discussion on this petition? Voice vote was unanimous 6-0.
President Pettit asked Mrs. Olthoff to read the 2nd letter from Mrs. Blaney.
Mrs. Olthoff read the letter from Mrs. Blaney. This is dated November 16, 2006. Please be advised that I would like to withdraw my petition P46Z-1106 for a Zone Change.
OLD BUSINESS:
P7AP-206 MERRILLVILLA’S/WHITE PINES, PETITIONER & OWNER, Located north of U.S. Highway 30 & Tyler Street for a Plat Amendment to Planned Unit Development to remove that age restriction of ownership of units as stipulated in Ord. 99-61 and the recorded covenants for the purpose of discussion of proposed plan of PUD residential development.
President Pettit said again with Mr. Huish’s motion and the vote to defer this until our workshop on December 5, 2006.
NEW BUSINESS:
P46Z-1106 STEVEN & CAROLYN BLANEY, PETITIONERS & OWNERS, Located at 8512-8516 East 101st Avenue (Crown Point Mailing) for a Zone Change from R-1 to R-2 on 26 acres plus or minus for a proposed Single Family Residential Development.
President Pettit stated again the petitioner has asked to withdraw this petition. Do we have a motion.
Mr. Dering made a motion to approve the withdrawal of P46Z-1106, 2nd by Mr. Taylor.
President Pettit asked all those in favor signify by saying aye.
The voice vote was unanimous 6-0.
President Pettit stated that the 2nd petition under New Business was a companion petition to petition number 1.
P47tS-1106 STEVEN & CAROLYN BLANEY, PETITIONERS & OWNERS, Located at 8512-8516 East 101st Avenue (Crown Point Mailing address) for a Tentative Subdivision Residential development consisting of 62 lots and 1 lot designated for retention pond to be knows as Park Place Subdivision.
Mrs. Blaney stated the lots will be 1500 square feet and there will now be 47 lots.
President Pettit stated so we have gone from 62 lots to 47 lots.
Mrs. Blaney replied yes.
President Pettit asked if Mrs. Blaney has anything else to present. This will be the approval tonight with this board. Tentative approval is not a published meeting, but the public may have some questions.
Mrs. Blaney replied no, she does not know what else you need.
President Pettit asked Mrs. Gregor to read the staff report.
Mrs. Gregor read the staff report to the commission.
President Pettit asked if the members have any questions.
Mrs. Blaney stated that there is a name change to Park View Estates.
Mr. Sterley asked if she has had any contact with Winfield.
Mrs. Blaney replied yes.
President Pettit asked if there is going to be any problem with the connection. See here comes the problem. With being the Ward Councilman out there R-1 permits 1500 square feet but if you cannot make the connection then we will need larger lots.
Mrs. Blaney replied that the connection has been approved by Winfield. The town will send you a letter verifying it.
Mrs. Gregor replied that at the tentative stage she will have to provide us with a sewer availability letter.
Mr. Dering replied I guess what we are saying if anything happens in the mean time. When it goes to Preliminary you are going to have to rework these plans so that it meets the guidelines for septic.
Mrs. Blaney replied that the approval has already been given and the funds are there.
President Pettit stated is that why you are going to the 1500 square feet because you are going to be on sewer.
Mrs. Blaney replied we went to 1500 square feet because there was an attitude of not wanting to rezone to R-2 when I was here before because the city sewers would accommodate with a R-2 lot. With 1500 square feet we will comply with the Towns minimum standards.
President Pettit stated let me rephrase my question then. There is no way to have larger lots.
Mrs. Blaney replied nor would there be a call for it Mr. Pettit. I don’t understand the reason for it. The reason for the other subdivisions having larger lots is because they are on septic systems and the town of Merrillville is the only municipality that requires the second addition availability on the same property in event that the first system fails.
Mrs. Gregor stated that is the Lake County Board of Health that requires the additional move over if the original septic fails.
Mrs. Blaney replied that I was advised that was a Town of Merrillville requirement.
President Pettit said that I am not as concerned about septic or sanitary sewer as much as water. Do you have water out there? Also I would like to see compatibility with the houses around you.
Mrs. Blaney replied there will be compatibility with the houses. What we are proposing are larger than the ones that are extremely close by. The houses to the north….
Remonstrator in the audience stated that I can not see where 62 units on 26 acres are compatible.
President Pettit stated guys lets let her finish. One at a time. Mrs. Blaney….I said that I would investigate this with Auburn H ills and I have. I know exactly how big the houses are.
Mrs. Blaney stated that the Auburn Hills homes there are only 2 homes on the extreme eastern
Portion that are directly behind our property. The rest of the property belongs to another contractor that is proposing…Next to those two homes are a thick row of trees that you can not see through and 150 feet of utility easement and then our property. So it is not like they are on top of each other. But the size of the lot doesn’t determine the price of the house. The construction of the house and what it contains controls the value of the house. So if you have a house on an acre and this comes from 20 years of appraisal experience. If you take the same house on 2 acres you are going to get very minimal value for that second acre because it is the quality of the house. For a blanket statement to say that the size of the lot is going to increase the value or make the house more valuable it is not true. If you have a house that is 2,000 square feet or 2,300 built with quality material and it is done in an open concept it will be just as attractive or more so that a two story home with of 2800 square foot that is done with cheaper materials on a larger lot.
Remonstrator stated that some people like larger lots so that you don’t have anybody on top of you.
President Pettit stated Sir please be more indulgent. You will be able to speak later. Are there any questions for Mrs. Blaney?
Mr. Huish stated that he has one. You only have one entrance in and out of here with fires and such. Is there any way to work another entrance out of this?
President Pettit stated you all know how I feel about this.
Mrs. Blaney replied there might be. I also have a list of subdivisions in Merrillville that have only one.
President Pettit replied that I live in one in the Preserves and I have told the developer that he is not going to get anymore approvals until we get an entrance on to Harms Road.
Mr. Huish replied that this is a safety issue. Especially with 30 foot wide streets.
Mrs. Blaney replied safety issue asking in what way.
Mr. Huish replied getting a fire truck through there that would be my big concern.
Mrs. Blaney asked on a 30 foot wide road would not be wide enough for a fire truck.
Mr. Huish asked Mrs. Gregor if 30 ft is not the smallest street that they can put in there.
Mrs. Gregor replied 60’ including the right of way. It is 34’ curb to curb.
Mrs. Blaney stated so a road is usually 30’ with right of way with 15’ easement on each side. I believe that is what we have over there.
Mr. Huish said I am still worried about a fire truck getting by a car parked on the street. When you have curbs it is stuff getting cars through there that is why I don’t like having a 30’ apron.
I have been trying to get us to change it.
Mr. Dering replied that it is just a safety issue. We really have to watch if something would happen down here on the north west corner and they can’t get down the road because you have cars parked along the road. You will say that you will never have street parking but unless you have them ticketed and towed you are going to have street parking. God forbid that you ever need ambulance service, etc.
President Pettit asked if there is anyone else with questions for the petitioner. You own the property now. This is not contingent upon any approvals.
Mrs. Blaney replied no.
Mr. Dering stated just to clarify this it is only 46 lots now not the 62 that were proposed. That is for the information for the folks in the audience.
President Pettit stated if there are no other questions from the Plan Commission members I am going to be very lenient ladies and gentlemen. You will be allowed 3 minutes. This is not an advertised meeting but I am going to let you come up and have some brief comments. State your name and address because the meetings are taped.
Anthony Baltera, resides at 10001 Randolph Street. If this is not approved this sewer plan through Winfield and they have to come to Merrillville for septic. How can she guarantee those 46 people that the ½ acre or whatever it is going to be ….
President Pettit stated that was my point Tony.. She will not be
Mr. Baltera replied I have 2 acres and they had to take 3 perks before and secondly the traffic where Merrillville ends and Winfield takes over have accidents all over the place. I can not even imagine what it will be when they have only one entrance and the whole subdivision has to come in and out over there.
President Pettit stated that Randolph is not in that good of shape either.
Mr. Baltera replied it has too many hills and you are right on someone before they see you.
Mr. Brian Beal resides at 9901 Randolph Street. Is the entrance coming out on Randolph Street for that subdivision?
President Pettit replied no on 101st. There is property between your houses along Randolph Street and this subdivision. Duffala’s own that property.
Mr. Beal said his concern is what size houses are they proposing and the lots and are there a minimum.
President Pettit replied 1600-2000 square feet is that right Mrs. Blaney.
Mrs. Blaney replied that we had said 1600-2400 square feet with a portion of the front with brick/stone, curbs, gutters and street lights and a park area.
Mr. Beal stated like Tony that traffic is bad in that area and the lots just south the developer took it upon himself to re work the road for the people that he is building houses for and it worked out really nice but know you have people speeding down there 70 miles an hour. Try to monitor them and slow them down with out any results at all. We can get killed tying to get our---- mail.
So we are looking at more people coming into this area so we will need more police out there.
Mr. Blaney replied yes I am a retired Lake County Policeman from the early 1960. I patrolled that area from the early 1960’s until Merrillville took over. I don’t know why some of these roads are the same size as in the early 1950 and 1960 as it is right now. I know I patrolled them. You are going to have traffic problems, cut everything off, don’t develop anymore. Randolph Street is your main artery and 101st (Division) you don’t have the traffic that that you have on Randolph Street. 93rd Avenue is your first full street that goes into Porter County. I don’t understand what you are talking about. You have a hill right there by Auburn and also a hill right there by Doubletree.
Mr.Beal replied that on the stop sign on 101st there just south of that they are purposing a entrance there is a hill and if you are going to come out of there someone is going to get killed there.
Mr. Blaney replied Auburn is like that.
Mr. Beal replied I only see Lake County out there. I never see Merrillville out there. They don’t even know we are there.
President Pettit replied I do know that you guys are out there. I am your Ward Councilman and we have spent about a quarter of a million dollars on Randolph Street and 1,000,000.00 on 93rd Avenue alone. I put water lines in and I resent that comment about not taking care of the pan handle. The pan handle is one of my top priorities. This is about density and what is going out there. I have talked to you guys about the size of the lots and the size of the houses with respect to the residences out there. Ok. We put a stop sign in on 93rd Avenue. Our Deputy Chief of Police lives out there and he knows what is going out there as well. If there is a problem Brian with police patrols I will talk to someone and get someone out there.
Mr. Beal said the stop sign on 101st people just blast right
through it.
Mr. Blaney replied to say that the subdivision on 101st is going to have more traffic but the main artery is Randolph Street is going to take the blunt of the traffic but so is
President Pettit asked if there is anyone else that would like to speak. Tony I was being nice to you and letting you speak this is not a public hearing. This is not going to be a 3 ring circus. This is a Tentative Subdivision approval and I am telling you right know you are not helping your cause.
Mr. Blaney replied that the way it is building out there you are going to have more businesses out there and the traffic is going to increase. You would have to stop all construction out there is this is the way these people think.
President Pettit asked if there is anyone else out there that would like to speak. Yes
Mrs. Linda Petruch, I live out there on 93rd Avenue my questions to the board is that I would like to see more of the house size that is already out there. Something that is compatible not just a lot of houses.
President Pettit stated back to the commission members. Is there any more discussion
Mr. Dering replied that this keyed out part of this property which is the S W corner of the property. Have you looked into buying that piece of property for a 2nd entrance?
Mr. Blaney replied that is a possibility. I did look into trying to buy the property to the east. That is owned by some of the previous owners and they do not want to sell. I may be able to pick up a few feet from them.
Mr. Dering replied basically what you are going to be looking at to slow down traffic is number 1 ) is petition for a stop sign or a excel/decal lane.
Mrs. Blaney replied I agree with you. When I talked to Mrs. Gregor we had talked about putting a side road in there to be off of 101st Avenue..
President Pettit stated I want to let the Plan Commission members know that I had asked Janet to give me the square footage of the homes in Auburn Hills. There are 48 lots in Auburn Hills and the smallest house is 2,058 and the largest is a 4700, 3300. This area has larger homes and larger lots I understand they are on septic that is why they were built on larger lots, but there is an integrity in that area that is different. We had this discussion on the development on 101st and what we would do East of Mississippi and that was on 200 acres. This looks like we are jamming a size 9 foot into a size 8 shoe.
Mr. Dering replied that what you are telling me that there is one smaller house that you listed but you are basically saying there is a 1300 square foot size difference in house sizes and that has nothing to do with the lot size.
Mrs. Blaney replied that she also drove through Auburn Hills and there are several houses that appear to be 2000 but visually appear to be 1600 to 2200.
Mr. Dering replied that we just got the information and you said that the smallest was 2058 square feet.
Mr. Taylor asked if that was finished square feet.
Mrs. Gregor replied that right, it is with basement included with 1st and 2nd floors.
Mrs. Blaney replied that you can not include your basement.
Mr. Taylor replied that you can not include the basement. That is not a true picture. It has to be ground level and up. What was approved above the ground?
Mrs. Blaney replied when I do appraisals for Fanny Mae. They do not allow me to include basement living area no matter how it is finished in the gross living area of a home. It has to be ground level up and when I gave you my square footage it was ground level up. When I gave you may square footage I gave you ground level up.
President Pettit stated that I will read you the bottom part of the legal for Auburn Hills it says that Phases in I and II it contained 39.719 acres more or less. There are 45 lots in 39 acres.
Mrs. Blaney replied correct because they have septic systems. If at that time they had city sewers those lots would have been smaller.
Mrs. Jean . I have lived there for 19 years and I have cattle, chickens and I have pigs. I will tell her that when these subdivisions are building up they are going to tell me that I have to get these animals out of here. I don’t want it.
President Pettit asked if there are any other comments. Let’s keep it to Plan Commission members only.
Mrs. Olthoff asked these lots that she has are minimums for R-1. Would you be willing to have a minimum on the square footage on the house of 2000 square feet and up?
Mrs. Blaney replied no because there becomes a cost factor that you are putting out more money that you are bringing in. This is our retirement we plan to live there and we hopefully plan to get enough money out to have a retirement. I am still working full time and my husband works with me. We would like to retire but to build something for whatever reason I am sorry that this doesn’t make much sense to me to have a larger lot even though your town doesn’t require it. We have already cut down 17 units off of what we proposed which is considerable. Too cut it down further would…..
Mrs. Olthoff replied I was asking about the house not the lot.
Mrs. Blaney replied no because there are some people that would rather have a smaller house. At 1600 square feet is not a small house on one level. At 2400 square feet is not a small house for one level or a level and a ½.
Mrs. Olthoff stated that I am asking if we can not make them small houses.
Mr. Taylor said that our minimums are 1600 square feet in an R-1. You can not subject her to something that your minimums are already stated.
Mrs. Blaney stated that I am already larger that your minimums. I can not put all of our lives work and money into a situation that is not going to sell. I have been in real estate for 30 years. I don’t think that in today environment we have had the boon and know we are in a slow down and people are not into buying the high price houses anymore at $300,000.00 or $400,000.00. They are looking for something more reasonable because of interest rates being higher. All indication is that they will go higher.
Mr. Dering stated I don’t mean to interrupt but we just had a proposed subdivision approved with $300,000.00 + in there. They are just down the road from you.
Mrs. Blaney asked how many have they sold.
Mr. Dering replied that they haven’t even put in there infrastructure they just got there approval.
Mrs. Blaney replied I don’t want to be put in the position where I have 3 or 4 model homes that are going to sit there for a year before they sell.
President Pettit asked if Mrs. Blaney is trying to get the most number of lots to pay for the
Infrastructure.
Mrs. Blaney replied no I am trying to get the most number of lots to make it a workable situation. Forget the infrastructure you have to take everything into consideration. We don’t have the money for this we have to borrow the money. It should not even be part of your conversation. The conversation should be what are your minimums and what to you allow and what will you approve. If I comply with your minimums and what you will allow and what you will approve then that should be as far as it goes. Our financial situation should not be an issue here.
President Pettit replied I guess you are right, but to speak for the integrity of that area and the people out there and that is my concern. They will come to the Ward Councilman and say what are you doing Shawn. Why are you allowing this to go in when we have a pattern, ratios a size lot and they are going to ask me. You are a new property owner and they elected me to address their concerns. Right know I have grave concerns.
Mrs. Blaney replied you keep saying that. I have shown you the pictures of the houses that we proposed I have shown you the layout of the property. There is nothing detrimental to that area that we are purposing. There is nothing that is going to take away from value. The houses in Winfield /DoubleTrees West are probably smaller and than is within a ¼ of a mile.
Mr. Huish asked if she gets turned down then she is done for a year is that right.
Mr. Taylor replied that this zoning is R-1 and she is meeting the zoning requirements for that area is that right.
Mr. Huish asked if you can get a 2nd entrance into this subdivision.
Mrs. Blaney replied that I think that I can.
Mr. Huish asked if we could get the roads wider so than I don’t have to worry about getting emergency vehicles down the road.
Mrs. Blaney asked what do you want.
Mr. Huish asked Mrs. Gregor what the next step up. You and I have talked about this before.
Mrs. Warmelink replied 32-34 feet.
Mrs. Blaney replied would our be the only subdivision in Merrillville that would have that wide of street.
Mr. Huish replied I don’t care what they did in the past I am looking to the future.
Mrs. Gregor replied that those are standard size lots so whatever it states in our engineer’s standards book.
Mr. Dering replied that you have to remember too when we became a Town in the early 1970’s there were a lot of homes and road already built here that were built more to county and rural specifications. Things have changed greatly.
Mr. Huish replied that the turning radius’s don’t even meet county standards.
Mrs. Blaney stated that these were done by Doug Homier and he is suppose to know your town inside and out so it was done by the requirements. I am not an engineer.
Mr. Warmelink replied that we are in the process of revising those engineering standards and Doug is aware of that. The turning radius is in excess of 52 feet and we have 50 foot radius here.
Mr. Huish replied that is why I am asking if we could widen these streets so that fire and emergency vehicles can get through.
Mrs. Blaney replied that she is sure that could be accommodating.
Mr. Dering replied that is something that would go through preliminary rather than conceptual is that right. Yes as along as you would be willing to work with that down the road.
Mr. Huish said the roads and the second entrance.
Mrs. Blaney replied Ok.
Mr. Warmelink stated that he has one more question here. It is more of a comment. You have put a lot of time and effort. If the capacity the Winfield is currently offering is suggested upon them finishing the lift station or do they currently have that capacity to offer you.
Mrs. Blaney replied they have already got a bond issue and also hire a contractor. I went to all of their meetings and they have already approved the expansion of their facilities. Since we are within 600 feet of their lift station they cannot turn us down. They have already approved formally at a meeting similar to this contingent upon our approvals of our connection to the city
Sewer facilities based on 2 things which is if they availability which they do. They have an excess of 900 after they took in to consideration our and everybody that was there that was going to put subdivisions in Winfield and also based on our ability to pay which we.
Mr. Huish asked if there are any plans to the west of you, to your knowledge for a subdivision all along that western border.
Mrs. Blaney replied yes that from what she understands it is going to be Randy Hall and he has Hallmark development.
Mr. Huish replied that must be the sign that I saw on that property. Is he already offering homes for sale out there?
Mrs. Gregor replied nothing has come into our office yet.
Mrs. Blaney replied yes and he has also gotten approval for the sewer facility from Winfield.
President Pettit stated Brian this is the one that you had questioned about that there was going to be an exit on to Randolph and that was proposed. I also told him that I would go back and talk to the residences. I will tell you guys flat out I am not crazy about that one either. I am the Councilman in that area and I am not crazy about either of these developments. So whatever that is…
Mr. Dering said that he would like to get more information on what is going on with DoubleTree across the road before. I would like to find out there sizes and the value of their homes and the size of their lots. I would like a hard copy on what is going on so that we can keep the area on the same track. Not that we have to imitate Winfield but we have larger homes on larger lots on one side of the road and if it is existing on the other side of the road too.
Mrs. Blaney replied that across the street in the original DoubleTree subdivision there is some very large homes and they have some small ones that are called cottage homes or villas homes.
Mr. Dering replied I think those are well in excess of 2000 square feet.
Mrs. Blaney replied no because we have some friends that own some. Those lots are 50 feet wide and the homes are 1600-1800 square feet.
Mr. Dering replied like I said maybe we can inquire about this. Maybe we should defer this for a month just to get a little more information to put together. The residences out there are not real happy about this. Your Ward Councilman is not happy about this. We even tried to get a small concession going to 2000 square feet. Even though it is not the minimum for that area.
Mrs. Blaney replied that you set the minimum I did not set them. How can you expect me to go beyond them?
Mr. Taylor stated that you can not ask them…
President Pettit replied but you also have to take in to account you are new and they are established. You should take into account the integrity of the area. I would tell Mr. Hall because I see him sitting in the back row. If you came in with what is in Auburn Hills I would be the first one making the motion. If this one mirrored the footage that is in Auburn Hills. I was elected by these people that are out here and those are the folks that I am going to represent. I know some of my fellow members don’t agree with me but these are the people that I represent. If that is what they want. I don’t think that is too much to ask. Maybe you should pair up together and put in a 100 acre development out there.
Mrs. Blaney replied that I am trying to work with you. I went back and redesigned like you asked me to do the last time and now you are telling me to redesign it again and you are telling me to do it again.
Mr. Dering stated that I think that what I was telling you by deferring this is it has been a heated discussion. Maybe we all need a cooling off. I would like to see you get together with the people out in that area and your Ward Councilman and try to work this out. It has been done in other areas. I don’t want to see you get turned down and have to wait a year. I would rather see you get everybody involved and work this thing out. If it doesn’t work out all we can do is vote on what is presented to us. Everyone has to give and take in this..
Mr. Huish asked this Randy that you are talking about that is in the audience. Is he to the one that has the property to the west? What would be the possible of you working out this.. is 100th I suspect working out your 2nd second entrance through his property. That is something that I have got to hear. Maybe that would be the 2nd entrance.
Mr. Dering said that I would like to see you get together and maybe you can get that 2nd entrance in and it will help and your neighbors.
Mrs. Blaney stated it is her understanding that Mr. Hall has an entrance on 101st and on Randolph so he already has his 2 entrances.
Mr. Huish replied that was the problem that we had in Madison Meadows and they worked it out. Maybe you can do the same.
President Pettit asked Mrs. Gregor in an R-1 they have to have 100 foot frontage. Where does that 100 feet measure at.
Mrs. Gregor stated at the building line.
President Pettit stated that there are 3 lots in here that don’t meet at the curb line but the building line might shove it back. What is the pleasure of the board. We have had a lot of discussion.
Mr. Sterley stated that he would like to make a motion of deferral in hopes that they will have a meaningful conversation between all participants, 2nd by Mr. Dering.
Mr. Huish asked how long was the deferral for.
Mr. Sterley replied for one month or the next scheduled meeting.
Mr. Taylor stated Mrs. Blaney Thank You for coming up here. I know what we have done to you and it is not a question of the neighbors that live around you but it is kind of hard to sit here when you have someone that comes up here and we put forth the standards and then we tell you that we don’t want those standards but we don’t want to build those standard. I appreciate you going back and talking to the neighbors and whatever reasons. We have the zoning and you have met the existing zoning and it is kind of hypercritical for us to tell you to change it. It is not about sliding the neighbors that have a ½ million dollar homes around there. The square footages are not correct. But it is not fair of you or them to do this in this type of manner.
President Pettit stated that we have a motion by Mr. Sterley and a 2nd by Mr. Dering to defer for one month or the next scheduled meeting petition P47tS-1106. Any further discussion. Mr. Vaznellis can we do a voice vote on the deferral.
Mr. Vaznellis stated yes you can
President Pettit stated all of those in favor signify by saying aye and opposed nay.
Motion carries 6-1 with 1 absent
P48Cp-1106 REAL
AMERICA, PETITONER
MADISON MANOR APARTMENTS LP,OWNER,Located at 7701-7708 Madison Street for a Conceptual Planned Unit Development in R-4 Zone on 16 Acres for a proposed Age Restrictive (55+) One story Rental Apartment Development (96 Units)
Mr. Putz stated in 2004 we were approved by the Plan commission. Two things have happened since then and the way it was approved we only had too short month to meet the date line for the tax credits with the State of Indiana. The other was water was coming onto the land from other areas. It is the same 96 units. Same plan we had just moved it around. We took our pond and
Takes in all of are water and have calculated the water that is coming in from other land and calculated into this. Taking into consideration of that we had to move some of the buildings around. We can adequately handle our water and can now also handle water that is coming in from other subdivisions. Nothing else has changed on it except the roadway along the police department side of the building. There is now an emergency road only along the Ballagido’s Restaurant. There is actually more room here to do that. Number 2 we need the room for the pond. We do not want that road to be a short cut through to Madison Street. We don’t want that kind of traffic going through a Senior Development. We do have an entrance on Madison Street.
The road is all private and parking. We will always maintain the roads because they will be private. They will receive tax credits and it is very low density. When we were before you liked it. They are one and 2 bedrooms units only.
President Pettit asked Mrs. Gregor to read the staff report.
Mrs. Gregor read her staff report.
President Pettit asked if there are any questions for Mr. Putz.
Mr. Huish asked what is the percentage on this.
Mr. Putz stated that there is a list for it, 1 person would have an income of $25,440.00, 2 persons income would be $29,040.00 and 3 people would be an income of $32,700.00. Rent is based on income and includes utilities The Maxine rent that they can charge someone is from $340.00 up to 692.00. They have a right to examine any criminal record, etc.
Mr. Huish asked if there would be a manger on site. They will be there all time.
Mr. Putz stated that they may have a manger that lives on the site.
President Pettit asked if these units will all be build at one time.
Mr. Putz replied that once we start will be built at one time.
Mr. Huish asked Mrs. Gregor is there is a limit as to how many people can occupy a unit.
Mr. Putz replied they have a limit 4 people to a 2 bedroom and 2 people to a one bedroom. Everybody has to be over 55 unless there is a disabled person comes in and meets those income regulations.
Mr. Fink asked if this is a maximum and there is no minimum.
Mr. Putz replied no minimum. But they have to have the ability to pay it is not subsidized housing. When they do this project they bring in there numbers what is going to cost them to do this project the highest amount that they will be allowed what the state allows. It is not a tax credit. That is what they pay $6,800.00 not based on monthly
Mr. Fink replied that is a voucher.
Mr. Dering replied that he has done some research on this. I went to HUD and found a number of websites from the National Housing law project. They show from 1995 state legislation of congress have provided some important incentive to promote and preserve developments for disabled or senior rent assisted housing. These laws generally lead to the owner the ultimate decision whether he wants to continue to keep the incentive or revert to market rate open housing one. Many owners have opted to convert especially after it changes hands. Thousands of these units have been converted nationwide. Not every owner is able to convert because of the agreements or rules. But a number of years down the road only through the diligence of local government and going through litigation are these old agreements enforced and unless the owners try and force out the subsidized senior does anybody make a fuss at all. There are even websites that tell these owners how to challenge state and federal agreements. Just think what a slick Attorney could do. It takes local government and community groups partnering to keep second and third party from converting. Many of these contracts with state agencies and HUD expire as the original low interest mortgage or tax breaks are satisfied and then convert and pay the taxes on the non assisted market rate housing. Most of the time Granny moves into this nice assisted living apartment and then Granny’s daughter gets a divorce and then moves in with Granny along with the grandchildren. Now you have to evict Granny in order to get the others out because you can not evict someone that is not on the lease. That will take wiliness on the owner’s part and 6 months if they filed that day. Then when the neighbors see Granny’s grandchildren in there decides that she can now take her troubled teens to live with her. When she is confronted she stated well you let the other person and then it spirals out of control. The residences of the Southmoor subdivision both phases and Mr. Van Prooyen who I saw yesterday who has an enormous investment. Not only him but the residences of Madison Meadows that have just moved in. I do believe that Mr. VanProoyen will have a problem with the Town after he made such a beautiful subdivision but bend over backward for the Town and the neighbors.
He went the extra mile and put in the extra drainage. I don’t think that we can allow this ill advised project. This is giving him a carte blanche to do anything that he wants with 1 and 2 bedroom apartments. Mr. Putz did have the approval but you did let it lapse. This is not a church based that is enforced like we do have already in town. The law review said that the church based ones work out very well because you have a church to enforce them. No offence but this is an out of town property owner. I want to see a track record 8-10 years down the road.
President Pettit stated I can see someone here from White Pines. You probably have read about it and we have been going around and around with these guys. I don’t see a body from Real America here tonight. Let me give you some advice so back and tell those guys that we need to see a real body from Real America. You are great and you are a local guy and you are great. The guy that was making the decision for White Pines finally shows up at the 11th hour. We may need to have them bring in something more substantial if they have anything from Fort Wayne.
Mr. Dering stated that he wants to know is this is etched in stone. Not with the state but with the developers.
President Pettit stated that at this time I would turn to Mr. Bower or Mr. Vazanellis this is a PUD ordinance. It is the law of the Town if the Council does not revoke the ordinance it is etched in stone. It becomes erasable when the petition is presented to us and the council revokes that ordinance like we did with White Pines. PUD is written in stone.
Mr. Putz replied that we did not change anything. We did not ask to get rid of anything. Two years ago I gave everyone a packet with where all of these locations are and several members called and they were highly recommended. There was no negative. It gave you all the people that you could call. I think that if you had searched that out I don’t think your comments would have been the same.
Mr. Dering said that I look at all side.
Mr. Putz stated that the comments were all negative. You can only base this on the track record of these people and it has been good. I have been in business for 35 years and you can always find a way around things.
Mr. Dering asked Mr. Putz how willing are you to evict Granny is she brings her grandchildren in to live with her.
Mr. Putz replied that if she is 55 years and older she has a child she is allowed to bring him or her in and enroll him or her for school.
Mr. Dering said oh now you are saying that it isn’t a 55 and older. Now you are saying that she can bring a non disabled child to live with her.
Mr. Putz replied that if you have a 55 years and older Grandmother that has a child with diseased parents and she is raising her grandchild and you are saying that she does not deserve a break.
Mr. Dering replied that is not what you proposed. You said no children unless they are disabled.
Mr. Putz stated I am just saying that if you had a 62 year old grandmother with a grandchild that there parents are deceased I would want to help this person out.
Mr. Dering replied maybe you would want to help this person out. But over in Illinois you have where these seniors take in all of their grandchildren from divorced parents, etc. Now you have a subdivision full of elderly people with all of the children that they are trying to take care of . You end up with a gang haven.
Mr. Putz replied that I would suggest that you go through that packet and talked to the other towns and hear what they have to say about it before you criticize. It is happening there you are just assuming that it will happen in Merrillville. You are only allowed 2 people in a 1 bedroom and 4 people in a 2 bedroom. There are restrictive covenants with background checks for criminal activities or anything else they are allowed. So they have good people in there that will need something like this and are able to afford it.
President Pettit asked if those restrictive covenants are from Real America.
Mr. Putz replied yes, I will get you a copy of them.
President Pettit stated Sam can we attach them as exhibit A, to the PUD ordinance when it comes before the Town Council. You can ask Mr. Bower. If it is laid out with the number of occupants to a unit…..
Mr. Dering replied President Pettit you know where I am going with this. If you brought in 2 adults and they bring in 2 children and they allow this. If that happens and we know that time and time again.
President Pettit replied that you can only physically have 2 people in a 1 bedroom and 4 people in a 2 bedroom. Any other questions for Mr. Putz.
Mr. Sterley asked how does this compare with Ahpha.
Mr. Putz replied that I don’t know what there rules are.
Mr. Huish replied age and income. I know of no disabled in there. I think that it is 60 or 65. Kids cannot stay over night.
Mr. Dering said no kid allowed only if disabled. I hope that we can work toward and implacable…. You are saying that only if there is a death or something exceptional.
Mr. Putz replied that they watch it carefully and their restriction is good.
President Pettit asked if there is a development in Hobart.
Mr. Putz replied it is very similar to this one. There’s is on the north west side of the hospital.
Mr. Fink asked what are you going to do with the units. The tax credits are not forever.
Mr. Putz replied that they have not changed any of theirs.
Mr. Huish replied so you would know 10-20 years down the line.
President Pettit stated that it sounds like we need a representative from Real America. You have a lot to take back and chew on.
Mr. Dering said that he would like to defer this, 2nd by Mr. Taylor for discussion. We approved him before for this. We are just doing the same as we did with that lady. Told her to come back with something else and then told her to.. I understand that Mr. Putz has some things to come back with and that Mr. Dering has some valid reasons.
Mrs. Olthoff replied but he let it lapse.
President Pettit said that it is not our job to baby sit these guys. Mr. Putz has been in the business for a long time. When he saw there was a problem with the tax credits he should have asked for a deferral. We did approve it and now he has let it lapse.
Mr. Putz asked when did you approve the ordinance about the 2 year ordinance that lapses.
Mrs. Gregor replied in 2002. The zoning ordinance was passed in 2002.
Mr. Putz said that he did seen a letter.
Mr. Taylor said that this is coming back to us twice so if Mr. Putz has not satisfied us with the issues that Mr. Dering has brought up we have the ability to send him home. So I say based on the things that Mr. Dering said that Mr. Putz brings back those things. If they are not satisfactory then we deny him.
Mr. Dering said that this goes back before I was on this board once you get that first approval it just goes moving down the river.
President Pettit replied that Mrs. Gregor and I have seen things pulled.
Mr. Dering said that he has to go to work soon.
President Pettit stated that we have a motion on the floor. Mr. Taylor is withdrawing his motion.
Mr. Taylor replied yes I am withdrawing my motion.
Mr. Dering stated that his motion is still out there.
President Pettit stated that there is a motion on the floor for a 30 day deferral..
Mr. Sterley stated that if there is no action on this I would like to….
President Pettit said hold on Mr. Sterley. Third time is there is a motion for a second. Motion dies for lack of a second.
Mr. Sterley made a motion to approve with a clear understanding of the gathering and preferred an attendant from Real America with our staff contacting Fort Wayne and Warsaw getting some recommendation….
President Pettit said Mr. Putz I would encourage you get together with Mr. Bower and Mrs. Gregor to see if the covenants that Real America has or a zoning commitment letter. That is my big issue and seeing a face from Real America. I think that Mrs. Olthoff whispered a 2nd. We have a Motion from Mr. Sterley and 2nd by Mrs. Olthoff to approve P48cP-1106. Do we have a
discussion on this. Roll Call please.
Mr.Dering no, Mr. Huish aye, Mrs. Olthoff aye, Mr. Sterley aye, Mr. Taylor aye and Mr. Pettit aye.
Motion carries 5-1 with 1 absent.
P49fS-1106 GCC MERRILLVILLE VENTURE LLC., PETITONER & OWNER,Located North of US 30, West of Whitcomb Street for a Final Subdivision approval in R-2 Zone on 23.45 acres for a Single Family Residential development containing 69 lots (1-10, 27-34, 40-60, 107-125 & 148-158) Fox Moor Phase II B.
Mr. Dering asked that he be excused. His employer is very good about letting him attend these meeting.
President Pettit stated let the record show that Mr. Dering is being excused.
Mrs. Megan Ward, of Anderson, Ward. This is a Final subdivision approval for
Phase II-B and 1-A 24 acres with 69 lots in an R-2 zone. The access is from Highway 30 and Williams
Street. The drainage was provided earlier
in Phase II.
President Pettit asked if there are any questions before I have Mrs. Gregor to read the staff report.
Mrs. Gregor read the staff report.
Mr. Warmelink stated to just clarify the traffic signal will be initiated by the Town but will be paid for by the developer.
President Pettit asked if there are any further comments or discussion. If not Chair will entertain a motion.
Mr. Huish made a motion to approve P49fS-1106, 2nd by Mr. Taylor.
President Pettit stated that we have a motion from Mr. Huish and a 2nd by Mr. Taylor for approve petition P49fS-1106. Mrs. Olthoff roll call please.
Mr. Huish aye, Mrs. Olthoff aye, Mr. Sterley aye, Mr. Taylor aye and Mr. Pettit aye.
Motion carries 5-0 with 2 absent
P50Ap-1106 5MINVESTMENT GROUP, LLC., PETITIONER & OWNER,Located at the Northwest Corner of 73rd & Whitcomb Street for a Plat Amendment to Whitcomb Plaza Subdivision in C-2 Zone on 3.94 acres to include Resubdivision of Lot 9 of Reders Farm Phase IV known as Outlot A for ingress/egress only for Whitcomb Plaza Subdivision.
Mr. Place replied that we are going with the original plans.
Mr. Huish asked if everything is going to be all of Lot 1.
Mrs. Gregor read the staff report.
President Pettit asked if there are any further questions for Mrs. Gregor or Mr. Place. Chair will entertain a motion.
Mrs. Olthoff made a motion to approve P50Ap-1106, 2nd by Mr. Huish.
President Pettit stated we have a motion from Mrs. Olthoff and a 2nd by Mr. Huish to approve P50Ap-1106. Any Discussion or comments. Mrs. Olthoff roll call please
Mr. Sterley stated that he would like to make a point. We went through a 45 minute discussion on a Conceptual Preliminary Subdivision and they went through the same changes and it still need a lot of work. You went through that same thing on this project did you not. It has been reconfigured and changed. I think that all of us need to keep this in mind. I thank you for your patience on this.
Mr. Place replied that at the end result will be a very good project and a successful development. I thing that the staff has been very helpful with their comments and suggestions. We have worked well with the staff and they have been very cooperative.
Mr. Huish aye,Mrs. Olthoff aye, Mr. Sterley aye, Mr. Taylor aye and
Mr. Pettit aye.
Motion carries 5-0 with 2 absent
P51A-1106
AMENDMENT TO ZOING ORDINANCE SEC. 21-46(a) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY
/CERTIFICATE OF USE, Regulating the issuance of temporary occupancy
permits in Residential Zoning Districts.
Mr. Fink stated that we have made the adjustment that were required from the last meeting. We had added in there that a certified check will not be needed in the event that a letter of credit or escrow is issued. The amounts of $2,500.00 for front & back, $1,000.00 sidewalks, $1,500.00 driveways and front yards will be $1,500.00. I have spoken with the State Board of Accounts and we will use existing receipts. They are in favor of it being cashed and ask for the return.
Mr. Taylor said two things the one with certified or cash escrow. Until the builders completes the site the funds will be held in escrow from the lending institution.
Mr. Fink stated if there are any changes made I will notify the Town Council.
Mr. Taylor asked that when the temporary occupancy or the final certificate of occupancy is issue that it only be issued to the person that applied for the permit. It is not in here.
Mr. Fink stated that change will be as well.
Mr. Taylor made a motion to approve on those 2 changes, 2nd by Mr. Huish.
President Pettit stated that we have a motion from Mr. Taylor and a 2nd from Mr. Huish.
Mrs. Olthoff roll call.
Mr. Huish aye, Mrs. Olthoff aye, Mr. Sterley aye, Mr. Taylor aye and
Mr. Pettit aye.
Motion carries 5-0 with 2 absent.
President Pettit asked if we have a motion to adjourn.
Mr. Taylor made a motion to adjourn, 2nd by Mr. Sterley
Motion carries 5-0 with 2 absent
Respectfully submitted
Janet Rosko
Recording Secretary.